How do you solve a problem like Mary Jane?
Face it tiger, you just hit the end of the road for every supporting cast member!
Hi, we are Dapper Dan Gvozden and Mischievous Mark Ginocchio, co-hosts of the Amazing Spider-Talk podcast. With each newsletter we hope to give you greater access into our thoughts on the world of Spider-Man!
On the latest Amazing Spider-Talk Podcast we just wrapped Season 6 and are reviewing the latest Spidey comics, but in this Substack we wanted to use this entry to discuss our thoughts on Jackpot #1 and the character of Mary Jane, plus we look back on some comics celebrating an anniversary, and Mark chronicles the manipulative powers of a redheaded woman. But first, please subscribe to this Substack!
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Now, let’s get to our discussion of… Mary Jane! (The Internet shudders…)
What’s the deal with Mary Jane Watson?
The following is a discussion of Jackpot #1, by Celeste Bronfman, Joey Vazquez, Eric Gapstur, Edgar Delgado, and Erick Arciniega. Rather than simply review the comic, we thought we’d discuss our thoughts on Mary Jane and how she arrived at this place. Please be warned, there will be minor spoilers for Jackpot #1. That said, it is probably best to enter this discussion having read the comic.
Dan: With the recent release of Celeste Bronfman and Joey Vazquez Jackpot #1 and the upcoming release of the Jackpot & Black Cat miniseries from Bronfman and Emilio Laiso, I thought it might be a good time to talk about Mary Jane as a character, how she has gone down the inevitable path to becoming a superhero, and our feelings about how she has been handled as a character by Marvel. Any discussion involving MJ post-"One More Day” is bound to rile up emotions, particularly on the Internet, so my goal here is to hopefully unpack some of why that is and offer a sober reflection on the character, as best as I can.
So, Mark, as long as we are in agreement about our goals with this discussion, I figure the best place to start is to discuss how we felt about Jackpot #1 as a comic and our feelings about MJ becoming a super-heroine. Let’s see if we can get some groundwork laid before we start. Can you answer these questions for me?
Can we agree that this change for MJ is temporary, likely for the duration of Zeb Wells’ run and the completion of this miniseries?
Can we agree that this kind of change isn’t anything particularly new to Amazing Spider-Man, starting back with John Jameson, Harry Osborn, Peter’s parents, and even Flash Thompson? And yet, something about this still feels different.
Can we agree that we both liked a powered-up MJ during “Spider-Island”?
Mark: Asking me to agree with you from the onset is a pretty tough place to start a negotiation Dan.
Do I suspect this is a temporary change? Yes. Would I be willing to wager a significant amount of money on that? No. Did I think when Chip Zdarsky revealed J. Jonah Jameson as knowing Peter’s identity as Spider-Man that it wouldn’t have a lasting impact on Spider-Man’s status quo? Yes, and yet here we are. I think this current status quo for MJ speaks to the larger aimlessness surrounding the character for years now. Whether she’s romantically attached to Peter or not, the fact of the matter is Mary Jane Watson has lacked agency and to be totally blunt, uniqueness as a character for quite some time. If you asked me to define who MJ is as a character based on the past 10 years or so of comics, I would honestly be at a loss to define her in a tangible way.
And that dovetails nicely with your second question, which pertains to how this compares to other members of Peter’s supporting cast who have received powers. Yes, this does feel “different” because none of the other characters you listed have forged such a connection to Peter, and by proxy, readers, as Mary Jane has. Since the death of Gwen Stacy in 1973, MJ has arguably emerged as the most important supporting cast member in Peter’s orbit. Even when she was written out of the book for long stretches, she long cast a shadow on Peter and Spider-Man comics because she felt bigger than just another supporting cast member.
As to your last question, yes, MJ having powers in “Spider-Island” was enjoyable because it was part of a larger story where giving her powers made sense within the status quo. Additionally, her having powers and working alongside Peter helped advance her story with Peter, thus advancing the larger story of Spider-Man at the time. Now the fact that the rekindling of … “something” was promptly turfed in favor of more events and inevitably Superior Spider-Man is an argument for another day, but I digress.
So, I realized in answering those initial three questions (and not necessarily agreeing with you on all of them), I failed to address the other part of your initial thesis, which is my thoughts on Jackpot #1 itself. Which is to say I felt pretty “meh” about the whole thing in large part because of the issues and concerns I have about the character that I outlined in your three “you must agree with me, Mark” statements.
Jackpot, much like MJ as a character the past 10-15 years, felt meandering and unfocused. It ignores the history of the character — in some instances, in a very literal way (like MJ’s previous encounters with the new Electro). In giving her a special suit, powers, and an Oracle-like sidekick in Paul, we seemingly lose sight of all that is special and unique about Mary Jane Watson in the grand scheme of Spider-Man. And it’s indicative of a creative and editorial team that is taking the “let’s throw what we can against the wall and see what sticks” approach to storytelling.
So Dan, after not really addressing all your questions in a cohesive way, let me ask you, what does Jackpot #1 tell you about who Marvel thinks Mary Jane Watson is as a character at the moment. And is what they’re telling you make you feel optimistic about the future of the character?
Dan: I feel like you did actually agree with all my suppositions in the end, so… I’m glad that we can enter into this conversation with at least a mutual grounding. As to your question about what I think Marvel thinks about MJ, I’ll go back to your comment about this uncommented-on reunion between MJ and Electro.
I think this story element in Jackpot #1 tells us just about everything that we need to know about Marvel’s current approach to MJ. Which is to say, I don’t think that they think of or consider her as a character with a legacy, character history, or role to play in their fictional world, other than to sell covers and torment readers. This isn’t necessarily to knock Celeste Bronfman or Joey Vazquez’s work on the title, which is all decent enough when it comes to writing and illustrating a comic for Marvel, but somewhere along the way, either in the references sent to Bronfman or in her plotting of the story, something went horribly wrong.
The last time that MJ had any real agency as a character was during the Nick Spencer run of Amazing Spider-Man. Now, I don’t want to praise that title too much, mainly because when it started she basically operated as a character for Peter to make out with or to endlessly worry about as she sat by windows (as she is wont to do). But, eventually she sought counseling, as a suggestion by Carlie Cooper, Peter’s other ex, and found herself exploring what it meant to be a superhero’s girlfriend and to find some calm in that.
This nicely climaxed during Amazing Spider-Man (vol. 5) #25, where MJ faced off against Electro and used her smarts and acting chops to defeat her. In doing so she stepped out of Peter’s shadow and proved further that they could be a healthy, functioning couple that isn’t burdened by her anxiety of Peter’s dangerous antics, if only Peter could find a way to reciprocate by lowering his own anxieties about her safety. (This was nicely reflected in his horrifying, Kindred-inspired nightmares about her. There, I said something nice about Kindred…. happy?) Was that story really ever concluded in a satisfying way? I would argue that it wasn’t, save for MJ dragging Peter’s body out of rubble in Amazing Spider-Man (vol. 5) #74 and proving to him that she could be a real partner to him. But, the less said about the end of the Spencer run, the better.
Back to Jackpot #1: That we got an issue where MJ, as Jackpot, squares off against Electro again, as her first real villain, and we don’t return to any of the thematics that defined their last encounter suggests to me that there isn’t really any care being taken with MJ as a character. This was the moment to have her face off against Electro and utterly destroy her, allowing MJ to finally express a power fantasy and to truly absolve herself of the anxieties that have defined her character ever since she and Peter first started dating. Like, it’s right there! This thing writes itself! Couple that with the looming threat of the device backfiring and harming MJ, you could have a really interesting chapter in the growing MJ story, one that sees her finally empowered, but still not fully grappling with what that power means (sound familiar?).
And look, this title/character could ultimately be going in that direction, but that the follow-up is a Black Cat team-up book doesn’t suggest to me that we are going to be primarily interested in MJ’s changing relationship to power and Spider-Man. And, I don't want to dictate how this title should be handled, I’m not writing it after all and nor should I be, but this feels like a real obvious miss. Instead, we’ve got Adam Hughes on the covers selling cheesecake, MJ largely sitting out “Gang War”, which relinquishes her story to B-Titles, and a continued ignorance of charting a character-driven path forward for MJ.
So, no. I’m not optimistic about the future of this character. Jackpot #1 was their chance to convince us that they were interested in MJ as a character, with a legacy, history, and premiere place in the world of Spider-Man. I’ll say it again: she doesn’t need to be married to Peter, she just needs to be the same prominent character she always has been. Heck, that could even take the form of being completely absent from the book, if only to highlight what that absence means for Peter.
Mark, how do you think we got to this point? Have we been here before with the character of MJ? And if history is a reference, what can be done to fix her?
Mark: It’s hard to say if we’ve “been here before” considering there were long periods where she wasn’t even featured in the book back before you and I were even alive (or barely alive). I will say, due to how social media has impacted how we talk about comics and all of their trappings, this is probably the most anyone has collectively talked about “this point,” thus making it feel more infamously historic. With that said, this feels like the nadir of Mary Jane Watson vis-a-vis Spider-Man comics for sure.
As for how did we get here? That’s tough. I could take the lazy approach and cast aspersions on individual editors and creators and say they’re just doing things for “clicks” right now and to stir outrage but I think that’s honestly not exactly it. Whether it’s an editorial mandate that causes Joe Quesada to show up outside your window when you mention “Spider-Man marriage” three times or not, it’s abundantly clear that the powers that be in the House of Ideas do not want Peter and Mary Jane together in any way, at least for now.
In this current run of comics, she was only featured prominently via the context that she and Peter had mysteriously broken up and we were going to work through the storyline backwards to show readers how. Since “Dead Language,” which is starting to feel more and more like the ending of the Spencer run in terms of its infamy, MJ has had no direction because there’s literally no reason for her to be there right now. And while I don’t feel like the current ASM comics are perfect, it is worth noting in terms of Peter Parker and his character, I’ve become more invested in his journey again since his character and all of his thinkings are not being defined by “not being with MJ” at the moment.
So, sure, with an approach like that, it’s no surprise that MJ’s character is now being treated/featured as if she’s Spider-Gwen, Miguel O’Hara, Carnage, etc. — aka, someone whose relationship to Peter in the comics is based solely on what the current storyline du jour dictates and when she’s not in Peter’s story, she can have a miniseries with 400 variant covers to juice some sales for Marvel. It feels sorry and wrong that we’ve gotten here, but it is what it is.
How would I fix it? If Marvel’s priority is to actually have Peter and MJ have a meaningful relationship again — whether it be romantic or platonic — I would take the approach that Marvel did in the late 1970s/early 80s and remove her from the universe for a lengthy period so that future creators can ultimately refresh and rehabilitate the character and bring her back in an impactful way. Do I think there’s a chance in hell Marvel does that? No. See my earlier comment about juicing sales and variant covers.
Dan, is there a way in your mind to reconcile Mary Jane’s history and legacy with Marvel’s current approach to treat her like some of the other (albeit more popular) supporting characters in Peter’s orbit? You cited some pretty unforgivable sins in terms of continuity and characterization in the Jackpot one-shot, but is there a future — for you — for this character that can be featured in stories where she is not intrinsically tied to Peter Parker somehow?
Dan: I absolutely think there is. MJ’s appeal as a character has long since outgrown her connection to Peter Parker, the problem is that even when she’s allowed to be in her own titles (The Amazing Mary Jane) or to appear alongside other characters (Invincible Iron Man) she’s either operating entirely in the shadow of Peter’s world or so divorced from who we know her to be as a character, respectively. Jackpot is kind of both, operating entirely in Peter’s world and somewhat-divorced from her history as a character.
Much of this disconnect stems from the still undeveloped set-up and fall-out from “Dead Language”, where we as readers are supposed to accept that a single issue of Amazing Spider-Man, #25 to be exact, could provide enough justification for the complete rewriting of this legacy character. And sure, you could argue that this was done in Amazing Spider-Man #259’s “All My Pasts Remembered”, but that issue was a brilliantly executed culmination of 20+ years of continuity and the smoothest retcon, perhaps ever, that basically functions like the ending of The Sixth Sense in terms of the whole feeling of “It was there all along, I just didn’t see it.” The events of Amazing Spider-Man (vol. 6) #25 feel like they were created to justify the events of Amazing Spider-Man (vol. 6) #1’s status quo shift and to set up for what we got in Jackpot #1, not a true culmination of events for the character.
But, I’m a strong believer, like I said, that any idea can be made to work. I provided a retelling of Jackpot #1 that I think could have worked, but we are past that point. Comics are always about what comes next. Anything imaginable could come next and writers have worked endless magic with ideas that didn’t initially work. Heck, that’s essentially the history of the medium!
Worse things have been done with the character too, remember when MJ was supposedly blown up on a plane? Or suffered a miscarriage that we don’t talk about? Or got that one bad haircut? All we need is someone eager to write this character as Jackpot with a full accounting of her history and engage with themes and ideas that foreground the characteristics that make MJ so special. There’s really no reason Jackpot couldn’t work as the next stage of MJ’s life in the pages of her own comic.
But the bigger question is: is that what we want? The Internet is full of people who want very specific things for MJ, including discovering a Real Science machine to make her come to life and marry them. What I want is for her to return to Amazing Spider-Man as a full character with a defined place in Peter’s life, and to be surprised by where both her and his world push her as a character. To that point, I’m not inherently against what Zeb Wells did to Peter and MJ at the start of this latest chapter. Splitting them up due to Spider-Man shenanigans is the name of the game. I just wish it had been done with more care.
Anything short of that, and I feel like you. It’s time to move on from MJ and so much of Peter’s fairly absent supporting cast to whoever is going to help us reinvest in the life of Peter Parker in Amazing Spider-Man. Is it time to admit that Harry, Betty, Mary Jane, Flash, and Liz have been through enough and don’t have much new to offer Peter’s world? I can’t tell you the last time I hung out with my friends from college and high school exclusively. Maybe, in lieu of trying to throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks for these characters, it’s time to find some fresh faces. It seemed to work for Dan Slott’s run, so maybe he was on to something.
This Week in Spider-Man History
The Spider-Man comic universe recently celebrated some fairly significant anniversaries of milestone moments in Spider-Man/Marvel Comics history.
40 years ago, the last week of January, marked the debut of Marvel’s first major event and maxi series, Secret Wars. Written by Jim Shooter with pencils from Mike Zeck, the 12-part story saw the sum of Marvel’s heroes and villains fighting each other for supremacy on a far-away universe called Battleworld. While not strictly a Spider-Man book, Spidey would end up playing a significant part in this story, including one of the world’s most famous costume changes. Dan and I would go on to discuss Secret Wars in our Season 5 finale.
Speaking of that costume change, one week later in 1984, Amazing Spider-Man #252 dropped and collectively blew the minds of comic book readers, and Spider-Man fans everywhere. Of course this issue marked the debut of Spider-Man’s all-new black costume. The original story was from Roger Stern, with a script by Tom DeFalco and pencils by Ron Frenz. Whatever happened to that black suit? Dan and I discussed its legacy in our most recent season of Amazing Spider-Talk.
Fans of 90s comics may remember our last bit of Spider-Man history from 1994; 30 years ago, in February 1994, Marvel dropped Amazing Spider-Man #388, the final chapter of “Lifetheft,” a story that revealed that Peter’s back-from-the-dead parents, Richard and Mary Parker, were in fact Life Model Decoys orchestrated by the Chameleon (and further puppeted by a beyond-the-grave Harry Osborn). Oh man, who doesn’t love the 90s, right? Scripted by David Micheline with pencils from Mark Bagley, this was a controversial one. Micheline talked about this story, among others, in our classic 2015 interview with him.
Mark's Comic Book Meditations
When Mark launched Chasing Amazing in 2010, the blog chronicled his “quest” to collect every issue of Amazing Spider-Man and featured a series of posts that recalled memories and meditations around specific comics he came to own. As part of this newsletter, we’re resurrecting these remembrances with some new wrinkles, and will also occasionally chronicle some other comics Mark has purchased since completing his ASM run in 2014.
Amazing Spider-Man #59
I firmly believe that in any situation, when you’re trying to make the best deal for yourself, you have to use all of the resources that are available to you – including the borderline flirtations of cute redhead that just so happens to be accompanying you to said situation.
Yes, in my acquisition of Amazing Spider-Man #59, better known to collectors as the first cover appearance of Mary Jane Watson, or as one comic book dealer once told me a bit creepily, “that issue where MJ looks hot in those boots on the cover,” I did what any guy looking to save a few bucks would do – I used my wife for leverage.
Before I get accused of any Indecent Proposal nonsense, let me just say that my wife was totally a willing partner-in-crime on this occasion. We were attending a relatively small monthly comic book show in New Jersey, and after finding a stack of issues that helped me plug some holes I was missing in the 100s and 400s, my wife thought it was only fitting that I end the day with a “get” – a nice issue that was a little more special than the $1 and $5 books I had been picking up from various tables throughout the afternoon.
I was initially resistant because I had dropped a decent amount of money during the day and I didn’t really set out to this show to cross something off my Silver Age wish list. But after a few minutes of coaxing, we did one last circle of the room just to see what was out there, and we came across a very nice looking copy of ASM #59, which was something I had really wanted for quite some item.
In addition to it being the first MJ appearance, overall, it’s just a really fun, quirky cover that screams Flower Power and late 1960s. Up until that point, I can’t really think of any ASM covers that date themselves quite like the way ASM #59 does. But Mary Jane here in her hypnotically-designed mini-dress and boots looks like a background character in some 1960s-era spy film (in my original post about this comic, I made a reference to Austin Powers as a “modern” movie here, and when I just now realized that said movie is more than 25 years-old I wanted to cry).
And let it also be said that I’ve always had an affinity for Mary Jane — despite accusations on the Internet to the contrary. What can I say? I love redheads so much, I went out and married one. And don’t you think my wife knows that? When she first saw the Spider-Man movie with me in 2002, she loved that Kirsten Dunst’s MJ was a redhead.
Point being is that once we spotted ASM #59, and once my wife was aware that it was the first cover appearance by her favorite comic book redhead, it was her mission to help me get that issue. But the asking price for the comic was a bit steep, and while it was truly in great condition, I couldn’t bring myself to spend that much on something I could probably get in slightly worse condition and still be happy with the purchase since I spent less money.
Those who have followed my writing since the Chasing Amazing days know I readily admit that my wife is the master negotiator in the marriage. With that in mind, she was not going to be denied this comic book. But she also knew that to get a good deal for a comic book, she was going to have to take a different approach than how she would attempt to get two pairs of sunglasses for $10 from a merchant in Chinatown.
What you have to consider is at a small comic book show like the one I was at on this occasion, my wife was one of maybe three or four females in the room. The vast bulk of sellers are dealers in their late 30s or older who are in all likelihood, burnt out from having arguments about various points in nerd culture with the usual lineup of dudes who walks the tables at a show. So yes, my wife was a sight for sore eyes, and she knew it.
Still, I needed to play it cool when she went up to the seller and in a somewhat giggly, girly way, asked if there was any way he’d be willing to part with ASM #59 for less than the asking price. She mentioned that it was her favorite issue because Mary Jane was on the cover, who’s “a readhead like me.” My lord was she laying it on thick, but you got to believe me that he was putty in her (our) hands.
Just to play the role of bad cop, I even mentioned that there was a date-stamp marked in pencil in the upper right hand corner of the comic. It’s a negligible flaw, and the seller reminded me of that. But it just reinforced that if we didn’t get the deal we wanted, despite my wife’s flirtations, we were going to walk away because I could just find a “better” copy elsewhere.
She argued the guy down by a third, but then in a final stroke of genius, my wife decided now was the perfect time to set-back feminism about 20 years and pulled the “math is hard. Is this the right amount?” card, naturally giving a few dollars less than the agreed upon price. And the guy took it anyway.
I was now a happy owner of ASM #59, making this particular trip to the comic book show a very, very successful one that filled some holes in my collection large and small. And in the process I learned that in specific situations, I have a very secret weapon in my wife, who said she legitimately had a great time accompanying me and working her magic on ASM #59. Of course she would go on to top this story with the moves she pulled to help me secure Amazing Spider-Man #1 but that’s a story for another day. In the meantime, beware comic book sellers when you see a guy and his chatty redhead wife approaching your table.
What’s New for the Amazing Spider-Talk?
Since the previous Amazing Spider-Talk Substack we’ve had a lot going on. But, the most fantastic thing we’ve done is our interview with Melissa Flores, the writer of Spider-Gwen: SMASH!
We also released our review of Amazing Spider-Man (vol. 6) #39, the proper start of “Gang War”.
We hope you enjoyed this eleventh edition of the Amazing Spider-Talk Substack and that you’ll consider subscribing for our future newsletters.
And, if you haven’t already, please subscribe to our various podcasts, comment below, and consider joining our Patreon: